Laura Kåmark
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Be Bold Make Waves Podcast, a show bringing you inspiring stories of women who are growing and scaling their business. I’m your host, Laura Kåmark, a website and tech integration specialist who works with online business owners who love their work and not their website. Join me as we have incredible conversations about business mindset, productivity, and of course, the website and tech behind the business. Let’s go ahead and dive in to this week’s episode.

Laura Kåmark
Hello, and welcome to today’s show. For those of you who don’t already know me, my name is Laura Kåmark. I’m a website and tech integration specialist. I work with women who love their work, but not their website. I’m so excited to introduce you to my guest today, Sandra van der Lee. She is the brains and the badass behind damn copy where she writes conversation copy for business owners and sales templates so you can get great conversation, coffee without the custom price tag. She also teaches service providers how to be more profitable and sell without stress. Sandra, thank you so much for being on the show today. Can you tell our listeners just a little more about you and what you do?

Sandra van der Lee
Yeah, of course. So thank you so much for having me. These are my absolute favorite to do? Um, gosh, well, like what do you want to do? Oh, really. So my main bread and butter is I have a copywriting company. And the big thing that we do there is copy templates are really where it’s at right now. And then I have a personal brand where I can establish all of my business growing scaling strategy offers programs one on one coaching, because what kind of happens is that, you know, as a copywriter, I noticed like I get into the project when it’s kind of done right when it needs to be written and sold. And I kind of sit there and I’m like, Well, you pay me 1000s of dollars to write for an offer. But looking at your audience size, your positioning on this, what you’ve put in it like it’s not going to convert, right. And it’s got nothing to do with what I bring to the table. It’s just at the foundation isn’t right.

Sandra van der Lee
So it really became a thing of this, like, well, that’s too late for me to tell someone like hey, actually, this isn’t gonna go anywhere this way.

Sandra van der Lee
So that’s kind of where my personal brand comes in. Or it’s like, well, actually, what if I did a group program about this? And what if I taught and it just became so messy? It’s like, okay, these need to be two separate things from now on. So I have a copywriting brand. And then I have a personal brand. Yeah. Wonderful.

Laura Kåmark
Can we talk a little bit I would love to know, kind of, how did you start your online business? How did you get into all this a little?

Sandra van der Lee
Sure. So yeah, so actually, I have a research Master’s, I’m officially an engineer. And I love travel. I went on my first solo trip when I was 19 years old to Vietnam for four weeks, me and a backpack and like an old school cell phone. This was then like we had smartphones already. I just didn’t break mine. So this was like old school had and I loved it. And as I went through university, and as I started seeing how large companies operate, I kind of looked at that and went like, well, this is a lie. Right? If you do really good work, then you might get a small pay bump and a big bump in responsibilities. If you get big financial wins the person who gets to profit from that is the CEO bonus and the shareholders or your boss’s boss’s boss, but not Euro. And then even so I’m European I’m from the Netherlands. Even with the amount of vacation days we get, which is a lot more than for us it’s like well, that still doesn’t afford me to travel to an amount that I want to and then I finished university I went through the job application process I almost got a really cool job twice and then something stupid on the backend like administrative happened and suddenly I didn’t have a job and I was like I’m done. So when the Chamber of Commerce is like I guess I couldn’t learn to design websites and sell that and that’s like I know oh no Web Design Studio. So it was really a necessity of like I need a job but I don’t want a job the way that we traditionally do though because those are kind of stupid. And I wouldn’t recommend doing it that way with like no network no skills no no I had nothing right like I had a MacBook Air that was it otherwise I had nothing so that’s not the easiest way to get started. But it worked out right like five years later here I am and this is I think the point where

Sandra van der Lee
I proved all my friends wrong right I’ve had friends from university Oh like are you sure you shouldn’t get a job right when the first in the second the sort of first full time here it was really hard it’s I don’t know how to get clients I don’t know how to do this and spending all this money but it’s not like I’m I’m living in my parents attic basically barely covering my own bills. And this is to here are the last few years it’s everyone’s been like how do you do what you do? Hey, it’s like well, how are you get it right now you got it.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, I love that I’m such a big fan of travel. And when I was in my 20s, I bought like a one way ticket and moved to the Virgin Islands. And that was like before online, I didn’t know about online business and like, it wasn’t really wasn’t one of

Sandra van der Lee
the that’s like a bounty destination, right? If you’re gonna go anywhere,

Laura Kåmark
and if I was doing what, like if I had the resources I have now with the online space, I could have just lived there forever. But back then you got like one megabit per second of download speed. And like I was trying to take online classes to learn, you know, web design, CSS, HTML, all the things. Yeah. And it would take like 20 minutes to render, like Buffer. It was buffering, like these classes, I was taking the videos. And so it just it didn’t really work. But I remember, like when I first met my first travelling nomads, and they were, it was I was like, this is our digital nomads. Yeah, I was like, this is a thing like that dream.

Sandra van der Lee
I know. Yeah. And you know, the funny thing is now so I’ve done it for a few years, kind of accidentally, because I went fully nomadic just before COVID became a thing. And I actually, so I went to Hawaii, I went to Australia, I went to see a friend in Bali. COVID hit the border to Australia close. So I ended up living in Bali for a year and a half by accident, which was great. It was one of the best. Like, I was so lucky. During that time, I was like, I don’t know what I did or what kind of car I have. But I was in the best possible place to be for that year and a half, right? And now I’m kind of like, I’m ready to settle down. And I’m struggling with the whole like, well, where would I if I can live anywhere? Where do I want to live? Where can I live? Like legally what spot right? There’s now a sort of things like, Okay, now I’m ready to live somewhere and have roots and stop the whole. I think everyone is jealous of this life, right? And everyone’s like, I want what you do. And I’ve done it for a couple years. And like, well, I want roots and to get to know my local barista, and I’m the same Pilates teacher again and again, and to build relationships and sort of have that community instead of you know, digital nomads, everyone picks up and leaves again. Yeah. So there’s there’s drawbacks. To be honest, it’s a basic. There are drawbacks, but I’ve like well, I just want to go on a normal vacation again, instead of take my work everywhere.

Laura Kåmark
Yep, the grass is always greener,

Sandra van der Lee
I think so.

Laura Kåmark
So how did you end up getting into the coffee side of things

Sandra van der Lee
with, um, that’s relatively new. So that was about a year and a half ago. So I got really sick when as I’m barley, I caught a bad case of dengue fever, ended up in the hospital and like having to call my mom like, Hey, Mom, odds are one in 20 get this kind of dye for that. So I feel okay, I’m starting to feel better. But that got that got really bad, especially the recovery period after we’re kind of living in Bali and COVID Relief and scraping it all together had to sort of get me by because physically, my body just wasn’t able to work. So that was a really rough period. And then at some point, I was like feeling a little bit disillusioned by the online space and the whole, six figures and seven figure launches, rah, rah, rah, you know, I made a million dollars, even though I paid my affiliates 800k And my ads team 400k. And I made zero, right? Like, I was just feeling like this is kind of and I wasn’t happy with what I was doing. And I was trying all these different things. And at some point, when I got like really honest and quiet, there was this tiny little voice was like, I just want to write more. And it kind of whispered to me, like I just want to write more. And I’ve always had a thing for writing and words. And if you’re into astrology, my birth chart explains that to you. So I put together like a super little simple offer. It’s like, well, what’s something that I love to do for myself that other people hate and I love writing sales pages. To me, it’s almost more fun to write the sales pitch and to create the actual thing that I’m selling, right? That’s like how this could be a thing. So I kind of Loki talk to a couple people about it. And I slept like a ridiculous price. I think it was like $475 or something. It was a ridiculous price. I thought I could do it in a day. I had like a little Google doc questionnaire and that took off like gangbusters and the reviews started rolling in and then you get the referrals and the whole limited there’s only one Sandra so at some point it’s like well if I do two a week that I was like selling 20 spots and events right it got really crazy there for a second It was wild. So yeah, that’s how that whole thing got started.

Laura Kåmark
Oh my gosh, I love that sounds like you took the offer. You made it kind of messy and you just launched it validated it. And

Sandra van der Lee
it’s a you Yeah, you kind of I feel like that is such an important thing. At, it’s so much more important to get it out there and and to wait for it to be perfect because if I was making it perfect first I would, I wouldn’t have sold any by now. Right, I would still be making it perfect.

Laura Kåmark
So true. So incredibly true. And I think that’s something that as entrepreneurs, especially in the online space, I know I struggle with that all the time was trying to make it perfect instead, and I have that little voice, it’s like just launch it, just do it, just get it out there. And that’s it’s hard because we want to put our best foot forward and we want to, we know we want to show up in a certain way, of course, and we don’t want it’s hard to be messy. But that’s where we get the results is by just put it out

Sandra van der Lee
and going. And the thing is that, you know, what we often forget is take your messy version of this will still help the person that needs it. And I think that’s the thing that we forget, right? So good. Yeah. Oh, good.

Laura Kåmark
So is that so mostly you’re doing sales page copy?

Sandra van der Lee
Well, this is coming out really soon. So I might as well come out and say I’m actually starting to phase it out or taking a longer break from it. It’s been so much fun. And now I want to create other things that I noticed that especially to pace I’ve been going at two pages a week I didn’t the joy from writing kind of got sucked out of it. And I started running group programs, and I take so much joy from that I created so many digital products. And the response to that to the templates is so good. And I’m like, well, maybe I should be writing more of these because it helps so many more people than I can help when I’m writing for people. So I’ve taken a little bit of a longer break, and I’ve made some new spots available. But I’m kind of like if someone books done, it’s okay. If they don’t get booked. That’s okay, too. So I might just quietly kind of take it down. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Tell me a little more about your templates. What? What needed the templates solve and who are the templates really good for?

Sandra van der Lee
Yeah. So it started with a thing where I came up with an amazing process for sales pages, right? That’s where my magic is. And for sales emails, like I love writing emails, emails is my jam. But what I noticed was a lot of people were like, Okay, that’s cool. But can you help me write my opt in page? Oh, can you do this page? Can you do that thing? The problem with that is is that my sales pages could be so affordable, right? Because the average conversion copy writer for a sales page charges between like two and $5,000. Let’s be real, right? And right now my highest rate is 1750. For just a sales page, and the reason it can be like that is because I have a really good process that works. But if you come to me like, Hey, can you write my Abell page, I need to sit down and like what do I need to know from them? What’s my process for this? I don’t have to tech setup, right, I need to go. There’s no automatic workflow to follow up with you. So it’s this thing where I’m like, well, that’s cool. But I’m kind of booked out anyway, on this really streamline profitable, enjoyable thing for me to do. So it’d be really expensive to have me do it because I would need to create a process, but I don’t really have the time to sell more anyway. So it was more of okay. And then it was a thing. I’m like, Oh, I’m booked out five months in advance. But now I’m getting people to like, well, I want to launch two months from now, right? Two weeks from now, my people are like, I want to do it yesterday. I like that too. So and then there comes a thing of a price point to where it’s like, what I noticed, and that’s a really sort of tricky, contradictory thing I’ve tried to manage is that the people who get the most out of working with me or dosa struggle most to afford it. Right. And that makes it kind of this thing of like, well, I know I need to charge more. I know I can charge more. Like I’m writing for six and seven figure business owners, right. I’ve had a couple clients are like, You should have paid me more because this is stupid. I know you turned around and made 6k Or like six figures from this offer, right? Who made like 100k 200 or 300k from the sales page. And here I am with my $1,700 or like with my my $1,200 That’s it. That was this was stupid. So I felt like templates were just kind of a really easy solution for me to help more people, but also help them write things that I don’t necessarily specialize in or have a process for. i Yeah, again, that also when I was on vacation, was like, Okay, what would the four templates be? I would do? What would I charge? And I say, well, here’s four templates. There’ll be one of them exist, the rest is pre order. It’s $100. Do you want it yes or no? Right? I think this is ridiculous thing. And I think I sold like 22 of them. And I was like, oh, people want I think this is a thing now. So yeah, that was just a really cool thing. So they’re basically Google Docs. They’re kind of general enough that you can plug in anything and it will work but specific enough that it’ll be good. There’s little notes on how I would lay it out on the page. If I have like strong design opinions, a lot of them come with like examples and little, like my upsell emails will have a little section on like, hey, for a good upsell, make sure that you know, it’s really an added value, it can’t be the same outcome as the main product, right? And so there’s little strategic bits and narratives, little examples here. And there. I have like screenshots from like real life sales pages. And some of them are more like, well, here’s your freebie Delivery Email is what 10 lines. I don’t sell that right, I fill that in, in certain templates. I don’t sell that separately. So yeah, that’s kind of what they are. They’re just Google Docs, you come in, you plug in all your information, you stick it on your sales page, or in your email service provider, or wherever, and you’re kind of off to the races.

Laura Kåmark
I love that. I think that’s amazing. And I love again, how you just kind of threw the offer together and tested the waters, put it out there to your audience, and they validated it. And that’s amazing, and so incredible. I would like you mentioned Google Docs. And so that kind of one leads me over to wanting to talk to you a little bit about the tech. So as someone who’s like a total like website tech integration that I love doing, like email sequences and all that I would love to hear a little bit about the tech that you use for your business.

Sandra van der Lee
Okay, sure. Um, so my website is on Squarespace, which I started as June Squarespace web design. I’m kind of of the opinion that what really helps me because I want to do it yesterday is that I know how to do everything in my business. So I’ve had a larger team. I have a smaller I’ve had a smaller team. I have a tech virtual system. That’s pretty freakin incredible. But I also like I came up with an idea yesterday. I’m selling it today. If she wouldn’t have had time, I’m able to put it together right. So I built I wrote and built out so straight from Squarespace. Then we’ll take payment and delivery I do through Thrive cart mostly well. Then for emails, I’m on Active Campaign, like I’m sorry, if there are ConvertKit fast, I have spoken more to the ConvertKit support than to the Active Campaign support even though I’ve been a user of Active Campaign for years, and he only set up ConvertKit for one client, but it is we do not get along our brains work differently. So Active Campaign. I’m an apple girl when it comes to computers because as a digital nomad, the battery life the way the whole fact that I can go home to my parents turn on my iMac and iCloud will be like prepares all your documents. What else? I’m on dubsado for my client process, which Yeah, um, deadline funnel, I pay for these days for countdown timers, and then kind of tinkering in the Evergreen funnel space. Anything else?

Laura Kåmark
Next question on the same topic. This is fun. I can talk about anything really. So then when it comes to emails that you’re sending out through Active Campaign? Are you a fan? Are you more like on the fly? Or evergreen sequence setup?

Sandra van der Lee
I’m on the fly. So what do I do that I love and one of my views for dem copy now that is going more and more digital product is that? Wouldn’t it be amazing if I had an automatic newsletter sequence that if you came into it, it would just start at email one and I just press pause on it whenever I feel like oh, it’s Black Friday, here’s a live thing. Here’s what I’m doing. Here’s what I’m selling. So for the future like I see the benefit for that. For me, it’s like I am such a prolific creator that I email on the fly but the danger is that sometimes I kind of disappear I actually had a complete stranger in a not in my own Facebook group. So like when I commented they were like, hey Sandra, I realized I haven’t seen an email from you in a couple of weeks or is everything okay? And I was like shit I just got caught out right like oh, no, I was like yeah, everything’s fine. I’ve just been kind of but now I email on the fly. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
I love all that. I’m also an active campaign user. i My only beef is I just switched their forms which prettier out of the box.

Sandra van der Lee
Oh, their forms I use convert box. It’s amazing. It’s so pretty.

Laura Kåmark
I don’t know what convert box is.

Sandra van der Lee
Oh my so I’m gonna give you my affiliate link

Laura Kåmark
and then share it and I’ll put it in the show notes. Yeah,

Sandra van der Lee
no. So convert boxes is really cool tool for pop ups. And one of they actually have a native Active Campaign integration. So what I do when you have those really pretty like LeadPages so it’s pretty click the button and the form opens. Convert box has that too and it’s a one time payment Um, so yeah, that’s mine aren’t that pretty, but you can make them a lot prettier than the ones in Active Campaign. So that’s how I do it. I have little converter box. So you click it opens, you put in your name and your email and it just automatically kind of zaps to use the Zapier terminology gets them into Active Campaign. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, I hear that there’s a lot

Sandra van der Lee
more. I have a really cool thing now where if you land on one of my template pages for the first time, a pop up will open and go like for I think it’s 15 minutes, and it says like, Hey, George $50 off this template, click here in the next 15 minutes. And then you only see it once. Right? So when you come back like that offers gone. That’s also a convert box, little pop up. Yeah, it’s really, really cool.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, I’m so excited about this. Yeah, for you to show that.

Sandra van der Lee
Yes, I know, the rabbit hole going down. Yeah, and I’m gonna send you the I don’t know if you know, Elizabeth Goddard or not, I’m gonna send you the link to her Christmas party thing too, if you don’t have it. Because my friend Leon Scott, which I think I also have an affiliate link for, if you want, it has a course on next level pop ups. And she’s a big convert box fan. And she teaches like all sorts of cool ways to use pop ups. And I’m like, I need to start doing that, right? Because it’s, you can use the software for anything. So it’s like, if you’re on a cart page, and it looks like someone’s going to abandon the cart, you can have a little video pop up to really show them the back end. And that’s like a Leon Scotchman. Like, I need to start implementing this everywhere. But I have so many things to do. But yeah, the little discount pop up and you can have them where you know, they’re not super invasive. So they come like from the bottom left, like small. And they’re like after that you can start showing because it kind of works in a hierarchy. So if you have a general one for your opt in, and it’s like, Oh, they’ve already seen a special offer, they haven’t clicked it, you only get to see it once. Now it will show like, Hey, do you want to grab this freebie? And you can just put in your face right there on the thing, click the button and stay on the page. Like yeah, it’s really cool software. I feel like I could do so much more with it than I do. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, I love that. Thank you for sharing that with Cory and my audience.

Sandra van der Lee
You’re welcome. It’s so cool.

Laura Kåmark
So you touched on talking about your team a little bit? I would love to know, at what point did you realize it was time for you to grow your business from like, solo Sandra to starting to build a team and what did that look like for you? So it’s

Sandra van der Lee
kind of fluctuated up and down. So I’ve my techie and I kind of don’t want to tell everyone who it is because I’m worried she won’t end up enough hours. I’m like joking about like, stay away. No, I’m kidding. I’m kidding. She’s amazing. She’s to her business called Organizing girl. It’s Danny fair her. So she’s based in the UK. And I’ve worked with her off and on over the last couple of years. But I would like pay for 10 hours and have her do a couple of things and ever do a couple other things. It hasn’t been until I think the last year or so that she’s consistently working with me every single month. And I try to find like with Danny, it’s that. I messaged her last night I was like, so I have an idea. Do you have time tomorrow morning? Because I kind of humbling, can this get done now. So we have some things that we kind of do on a schedule, I have some recurring things I have her do and I have group programs. She’s awesome. But I think it’s really important to find the right sort of fit in terms of I respect that not everyone can work on it like, Hey, do you have time for this tomorrow type of schedule, right. And it’s informal, I trust her. And I think there’s a thing about longevity where she’s in my five cards she’s in, you know, she’s pretty much in everything unable to access everything. So I think it’s really important that you find the right person and that you kind of build that sort of trust over time where it’s like, you know, Danny’s not the cheapest VA on the block. And I don’t think of her as a VA either. And that means that if she does something, I don’t really have to check it right. Whereas if I get the cheapest or the newer VA or I don’t have SOPs like Danny just throw together a new. I don’t know, that’s not how my brain works, right? So I’m very careful with not getting a virtual assistant needs a step by step explanation, because I’m not going to be the one to put it together. It’s just not how I’m how my brain works. So I have Danny done, I’ve been working with an affiliate program manager who does a bunch of little affiliate things, which has been a different and interesting experience, because it’s a tricky thing to outsource. And it’s like, well, how do you measure the results? Because if my current affiliates make sales, that’s not really good, right? So it’s like, how do you get ROI? How do you measure? But that’s just been a really interesting thing. bring someone in the dynamic who’s kind of separate. And then for a few months, I’ve had an integrator, which is something that normally you don’t see in a business of my size. And that was more that I was so busy. I had Danny, I had a bunch of projects that I wanted to get done. But because my brain doesn’t work into step by step, assign a person and a deadline, I was like, I need a person that can tell me how to break this down, assign it to people beyond my ass, if I’m not doing my part beyond their ass, because I’m also not the person say, Hello, you missed a deadline, where’s this thing. And that was she was great for a couple of months. But because I kind of phased out the services, and I didn’t really want to, I was just in a bit of a wonky space, the financial commitment didn’t make a lot of like, there was not a lot of for her to integrate. Because I was kind of sitting here was like, Maybe I just want to sell everything I’ve already made next year at nothing new and like, we can set up a few funnels, and then there’s not much for you to do. And then there’s the financial part of it, too, is like, I came to California, and I love it here. So I want to move to the US. But I need to get an investor visa, which means I need to come up with a hefty upfront situation. And I’m looking back at a year ago. And like, if I didn’t buy all these things, I could just have this already, instead of sit here and go like, okay, what are we going to do to come up with a ton of money for this. So it’s kind of fluctuated up and down. Like I outsource little things. I’ve worked with graphics, like a brand designer and a web designer, even though I can do my own website, I was so busy last year that was a little over a year goes like this needs to be done. I’m way too busy. Can I pay someone to do this for me, and the result is so much better.

Laura Kåmark
I love all that. I think that’s also brings up a really important piece that about that. It’s okay for us as business owners to make pivots in our business. Yeah,

Sandra van der Lee
and to change our minds.

Laura Kåmark
And that’s the beauty of what we’re doing. And if something doesn’t bring you joy anymore, and you’re like, I want to make a change you can. And again, that’s the beauty of the freedom that we have in running our businesses. I love all that. Thank you for sharing all that. That’s

Sandra van der Lee
ours, I’m yeah, pretty much nothing is off limits when it comes to me usually

Laura Kåmark
that what would you say? Were some of the biggest challenges that you faced, kind of like, on a mindset level when you were first starting out in your business?

Sandra van der Lee
Oh, you know, it’s funny, because I there. So saying this, like how you do one thing is how you do everything. And I think at the beginning, I was like, if only I’ll find a client, if only I’ll find a client, everything will be okay. And then I got a client, I was like, now I have a client, what do I do? Right, that’s this thing where there’s these milestones that will happen to everyone. And then I have a program for service providers called booktown. And they talk about this that if you work with enough clients, statistically, there’s going to be a person that is either going to be a royal pain in the ass is going to want a refund is going to disappear for a second. Like if you work with enough people statistically shitty stuff will happen. That’s just maths, right. And the funny thing was, it actually happened to me. And I knew it was going to happen since like, I’m getting to a point where it’s now not happened for so long, at some point something and that’s not a, I’m manifesting bad things, it’s more of like, I need to pay attention, because at some point, something’s gonna. And it did. And I actually had the first client ever that hated my work, wanted a full refund, send a whole email from them and their team about why it was wrong and everything that was terrible. And this one line didn’t have a period at the end. But this other line did have a period in their bullet list and everything was the worst. And they wanted all their money back. And I was like, that’s not really how our contract works, right. And I made the mistake of I was so busy that I was like, I’m just going to refund you half and it was basically I’m going to refund you to fuck off. That was really and only half because I was like I actually produced and looking back as like they’d probably you go for the press and like you didn’t even read the sales page for this scenario, because she’s like, and you should have told me that this really, that’s literally sitting, there’s a whole section on this. And it’s this thing where I’m like, could I have prevented this or should I have filtered them out somehow. But I noticed that that really shook my confidence in my work. And I like I tried to tell all my students like it’s gonna happen and it’s happened before and I’ve always kind of managed to resolve it in a good enough way. This was the first one where it got really gnarly. Yeah, it got really, really gnarly. And it just shakes so it’s the Spin where it doesn’t matter where I am, right? There’s always a mindset challenge. Because I’ve, you know, I’ve had the same thing to where when I was living in Bali and when I couldn’t work I was broke. And it’s like, if only I had more money and then at some point like this started taking off and money started coming in. And I was like, What do I do with all this money? What if I ruin it? What if I lose it? Like, I under save for taxes this year? So I’m trying to fill like a savings hole Derrick’s and like, oh, no, I completely did the math wrong. I didn’t save. And so there’s always going to be challenges. They just kind of change. But I think that mindset wise, the work is always remembering that you know what to do. And if you don’t know what to do, you can figure it out. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That’s what it is. I love that. I

Laura Kåmark
think that’s such an important reminder too, because, you know, it’s I know, sometimes it’s hard to like call yourself an expert. But like, what is an expert? Exactly. It doesn’t mean you have all the answers. That means you’re willing to find out the answer,

Sandra van der Lee
say, and it’s also this thing where it’s like, you cannot be an expert at everything, you can be really good at what you do. But if the wrong person book set, right? It’s not going to work out anyway. So yeah, I would say that the problems get different. And things that were stressful to you a year ago are not stressful to me today. Like the numbers get different, the boundaries become their friend. But it’s always it’s like, well, if you wanted to be comfortable, you should have bagged groceries at a Walmart like I’m sorry, but that’s the reality of running a business.

Laura Kåmark
Absolutely. So I am also a really big fan of celebrating our wins. And I love I love to celebrate my wins with cheese plate and wine. My favorite, celebrate. So I would love to know what what, what is something that you’re really proud of yourself for when it comes to your business. I mean,

Sandra van der Lee
oh, this is a tricky one. So actually, it’s a really interesting one where I was kind of in the fog, keep it for a while. And then I looked back at but I’ve managed to create. So we’re recording this on December 14 2022. So if you’re seeing replay in this calendar year, I created to group programs and sold them with a self study curriculum. I added. I want to say like a templates and I turned them into mini courses. So there were too many courses, I sold a high ticket coaching version of one of my programs. And I felt like I created and did nothing this year. And then I looked at the list and I was like wait a second, I created more assets and more sales and more sort of than most people do in a lifetime. Cycle. What? Um, so yeah, I think that that is something where I look back. And I’m like, I think if you go to my website, if you look at the Library of assets that I have, it’s unimaginable that I created that in like 1415 months, because I did my first templates last year in October. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Beautiful. So incredible. How do you keep track of these wins? Do you like keep a running list throughout the year? Because I know for me, I want to keep a list. And I’m always like, cool. That’s such a great idea. I have to sit there and think about it. And I’m like, What did I actually accomplish? I do find it helpful to go through my planner and like see the calls that I had and what was on because I forget all the

Sandra van der Lee
things. I honestly I think for me the winter so I have a revenue tracking spreadsheet and a cash flow tracking spreadsheet and I keep like little bits of notes of what the things I sold was. And I kind of go back to Oh, like we had like, three lines. And by now there’s like 15 lines of different things right? And like little and I’m like, huh, if I want to see the winds, I go to that spreadsheet and it’s not just about the money, but it’s about seeing like, alright, that’s true. I hosted a bundle right two months ago, that that too. Right? Forgot about that did that to me, I feel like I should be better about that. But again, like the digital nomad thing, I have a couple of journals. I don’t want to leave them behind. But also there’s kind of a limit to what you can bring with you.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh, so fun. I’m loving this conversation. I would love to know what is something that you’re doing that’s making waves in your industry, something you’re doing different and being a little bolder.

Sandra van der Lee
I don’t know if it’s different in the sense that I think there’s more people that do this. But the interesting thing is that when people come or when people give me feedback, it’s not always about like this product. was amazing. I love what you said about this, I learned so much I broke my sales page so fast like remember, it’s a thing around like, because I show up. So unapologetic, so real. I used to do like income reports and also had my expenses and that sort of stuff, right? I had a couple of those for a while. My company name is called damn copy, right? And it’s like, if you get me on your podcast, you better market explicit. It’s not on purpose. It’s just sort of how I when I get excited, I’m going to drop an F bomb. And it’s a thing where people come back and they go, like, you gave me permission to do this in a way that works for me or because you show up. So as a human, and I think that I model fairly healthy boundaries compared to most people. It kind of gives them permission to do the same. And I love that. And the funny thing is that I’ve had a couple people. I do Voxer office hours in my group programs, so you could just talk to me on boxer the whole day. I think Aleksandra, I’m so sorry. Like I wasn’t sure if the day and if this is overstepping. Just tell me. And then he asked me a question. It’s not completely related. And I’m always like, Look, don’t worry about overstepping. No one overstepped with me because I have healthy boundaries. And I think there’s just a thing where by having multiple offers and multiple streams, and by changing and pivoting and coming on podcasts like these and being really honest around like, look, the last couple of months, I was in a funk and I felt like a failure until I looked at everything I created. I was like, oh, wait a second, how many people can do that? Right? It kind of gives people the space to do the same and be the same. And I think that that’s something that a lot of business owners don’t do. Right? They will share that. They will share their shining foot. Let’s be honest with the kind of life I’ve had, if I wanted to do a lifestyle brand, it’s like, I’m drinking a cocktail in Orange County. I’m in Cancun, and essentially, like I could, I could totally have a brand that goes like, I make six figures actually make more than that. But like I make the I like, here’s how you hit 100k In a year binary thing, right? I can totally do that. But it’s a thing where I’m like, Well, that’s one part of the equation. Right? The other part is, yes, I had bugs. Yes, I have clients that go completely off the rails. I have months where I’m like, Oh, great. I made all this money. And I still can’t afford the one thing that I truly deeply want right now. Right. There’s a, I think, an honesty that really enables other people to show up more honest.

Laura Kåmark
I love that so much. And I think that’s important. I love that you lean into that, because I agree. It’s not easy. And I feel like there’s a lot that people see when we have like these perfect Instagram feeds. I know I’ve hit some of that because I have a girl who does my Instagram and someone’s like, how do you have all the time? I’m like, That’s not me. Like I’m very transparent. Like I do not do my Instagram. I hire that out because Instagram is overwhelming to me. And real talk.

Sandra van der Lee
You know what? I don’t even want to be on there most days anymore. Like I want to chat there. I chat to you know, my friends and we send each other memes and I want to see what my friends are. I don’t want to be there for work. Not really.

Laura Kåmark
I much prefer to like, Facebook makes sense in my head. I can comment with like, photos, links, I can comment with anything I want. I feel like Instagram limits me. Can I put a link anywhere?

Sandra van der Lee
And then to grow you need to be like really strategic and that’s like it was reals. And I’m like, Okay, first of all, I’m not an entertainment company. I’m not going to shake my ass for likes, right? I had a ridiculous real 3000 people have now seen it and it’s me trying to record videos singing about the garbage truck is coming by and I’m sitting there like singing like I like big trucks. And I’m not lie. And I was like, it didn’t bring me it was funny. I shared it so my friends could see my ridiculous shenanigans of trying to record videos for YouTube. And I’m like, It’s not bringing me clients. I don’t really make sales there to do the things like to grow are not things that I enjoy doing. And I feel like honestly, your email list is so much better for conversion focused. There.

Laura Kåmark
I am right there. Like just dropped the mic right now.

Sandra van der Lee
Leave Instagram start an email list. Yes. Yes, I have templates if you need help to sell on email.

Laura Kåmark
I will put the link down in the show notes. I love that. Oh my gosh. Sandra. Yes, you were speaking my language. 100%

Sandra van der Lee
Tick Tock. People send me tic TOCs. And I’m like, I can’t open this. I don’t own this app. How does this work?

Laura Kåmark
Same same. I don’t send me a tic tock. I don’t understand. I don’t do that. I don’t have I don’t know how to do that. Oh my gosh, Sandra, I could talk to you all day long. This is so fun. No, we are getting close to our time. I do have one final question. Yeah. And everyone who comes on the show, and that is what is one piece of advice that you would give to someone when they’re first starting out that would help them be bolder, be louder, and make waves in their

Sandra van der Lee
business. I should have prepared for this. So I could have had a perfectly thought through one line answer. Um I think that at the beginning, you need to decide that this is going to work no matter what and that you’re going to do the scary thing and that it’s going to probably be the hardest thing you ever do. But then you get to choose what kind of hard you have in your life, right? decide that you’re going to do it, decide that you’re going to do the scary things, delete the Facebook and the Instagram app off your phone and look and decide that if that means you got to learn how to do a webinar, you’re going to do a webinar. And you’re going to do it again and again, right, because you’ve made a decision. And I think there’s a there’s a really significant part about a decision and a commitment that no matter what, this is what it’s going to be. And to refer that back to damn copy. When I left, I had to leave ballots, or I wanted to leave, I had to leave my visa expired, everything was really slow. So I left because it just got sketchy. And it’s like no, no little extend help problem. And at some point, it’s like Matt, and I came home to my parents house. And I said to myself, like this is the money damn copy needs to make by January 1. And if I’m not paying myself this salary by dad and making this money, I’m going to get a job. And I really don’t want a job. But that’s the like, the consequence of my action is that I’m gonna get a job. And you know what happened, I make double the money two months later, that I needed. Because I made a decision, right, and a commitment that it’s like, and I think that we talked about, and I’m all for creating things from Flow and doing the things that you want to do. But at the end of the day is like, unless you have a lucky situation where someone else pays your bills. And this gets to be a hobby for you and you got to just spend on your business and you don’t need to take a salary. That’s wonderful for you. I’m happy for you. I have friends who started that way. That’s amazing. But if this is your job, it needs to pay you a salary and you need to commit and be in this no matter what. And that means doing, you know, sitting there and making tic TOCs that don’t make any money. It’s not a business activity. That’s what you get to do with Neff in the evening when your does, right.

Laura Kåmark
I love that so much. And I think that’s excellent advice. Well, good.

Sandra van der Lee
It’s not fun. It’s not I need to I had to sit down with myself to tell myself this the other week, right again, like I noticed myself getting the Instagram and the Facebook groups and and I’m like, Well, what if this is a sales activity? I’m like none of it. Right? Yeah,

Laura Kåmark
I love that so much. Sandra, thank you so much for coming on today. Can you tell our listeners where they can go find out more about you hanging out with you sooner in their life?

Sandra van der Lee
Email. So if you go to the damn coffee website, there’s literally a get my email button right at the top emails, my jam, I love to hang out on Instagram. But the thing there is like, that’s where you get to see real life usually a little bit after it’s happened. Because for safety reasons, I don’t usually post where I am when I’m there. And where else I feel like email is just my jam. Like that’s what I love. If you ended up making a purchase, I have a client only Facebook group that is like yeah, but that’s really the places we’re hanging out is Facebook, Instagram, and emails. Wonderful. I will link all that up in the show notes a saying thank you so much. Thanks so much for being on today.

Laura Kåmark
Thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode. Be sure to check out the show notes at Laurakamark.com/podcast. And if you’re ready to turn your website into a marketing machine, get more sales, save time and simplify the back into your business. Grab my free resource power integrations for your website. Head on over to Laurakamark.com/power. Thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye now.