Ep. 05: Creating Conversational Copy that Converts with Nicole Kepic

September 21, 2022
Nicole Kepic

Meet Nicole:

Nicole is a conversion copywriter who specializes in sales pages, email sequences, and website copy. She serves coaches and creatives – helping them stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients, and sell out their signature offers.

When she’s not on her laptop, she’s usually spending time with family, devouring a suspense novel, or re-watching an old episode of The Office.

Links & Resources

If you love your work and NOT your website and are ready to grow and scale your business go to laurakamark.com to find out how I can help bring your vision to life.

Full Episode Transcript

Laura Kåmark
Hey everyone. Welcome to the Be Bold, Make Waves podcast, a show bringing you inspiring stories of women who are growing and scaling their business. I’m your host, Laura Kåmark, a website and tech integration specialist who works with online business owners who love their work and not their website. Join me as we have incredible conversations about business mindset, productivity, and of course, the website and tech behind the business.
Let’s go ahead and dive in to this week’s episode.

Welcome to the show today, I am so excited to introduce you all to my very close friend Nicole Kepic. Nicole is a conversion copywriter who specializes in sales pages, email sequences and website copy. She serves coaches and creatives helping them stand out from the crowd, attract their ideal clients and sell out there signature offers. And I’ve known Nicole since I think it was in 2020, we met near the end of 2020. And we had joined a program together and ended up it was a coaching program that we got paired off together, there was four of us put in a group until we really got to get to know each other, we had twice a month calls, I think, and we have an ongoing chat. And so I’ve just loved watching your business bloom over these last couple of years and just have such an amazing friendship with you that I cherish so much. So I’m so excited to share you with my audience and introduce more people to you because I think everyone needs to be in your world.

Nicole Kepic
Oh, I feel the same way about you. And it was so random how we got put together right in that small group. And I remember those first couple of calls where we were just basically strangers. And you know, it was a bit awkward at first just introducing ourselves and who we were and what we did. And then it slowly while probably pretty quickly grew into such close

Laura Kåmark
friendships. Yeah, which was amazing. And we actually even got to meet in person, which is so amazing. I have not done a whole lot of in person events. And in November of 2021, there was ton of us who all got together for an in person retreat, which was just so amazing to be able to connect in real life, hug each other in person and sit around for like four days and like eat cheese and drink wine and mastermind and talk about our businesses and all the things so yeah, it was so

Nicole Kepic
great. And it was like I remember we were talking about how it should have been awkward. But it wasn’t because we felt like we already knew each other so well. And then when we went and met in person. Yeah, it just felt like we had been friends for years. Yeah, so yeah, pretty awesome.

Laura Kåmark
So I would love for you to tell the audience a little more about can we kind of go back and talk about how you started your business when you started your business? And what kind of led you to leave the corporate world and come into the online space and grace us with your words.

Nicole Kepic
Crisis for their words. Yeah, I mean, sometimes it’s hard to answer that question when I started my business, because technically it was like 12 years ago when I started freelancing on the side, because I was already a copywriter in the nine to five worlds, I went to school for journalism, I was working at a design studio as a copywriter, senior copywriter. And then on the side, I had started writing for my own clients kind of by accident, but you know, a bit on purpose. But it was just like one or two clients that always came back to me it was just kind of like extra trip money or something to do because they didn’t have a copywriter on staff. So that was like 12 years ago. So I mean, I guess it technically was my own business. But the way I run my business now being full time in it is completely different than when it was just kind of like, oh, for extra money and something I did here and there. Whereas now it’s like, okay, I don’t have a steady paycheck or anything. So I have to go all in. Yeah, so that was about 12 years ago where I started freelancing. And then I did that for a while, obviously. And you know, I scaled back a bit on my nine to five, I scaled down to three days a week. And then I scaled up with my freelance business. So I started taking more clients. And then the freelance business just got to be busier and busier. And then I started thinking more like, this could be a full time thing. Like why am I still doing both? I need to choose one. And that’s what I eventually did. And there were a few roadblocks in the way like, I wanted to leave corporate sooner than I did. But you know, life gets in the way. And looking back now I’m like, Okay, this was the right time when I did leave it sometimes I wish it was earlier, but now it was the right time. And so

Laura Kåmark
when did you actually make that transition from you turned in notice and you had your final day?

Nicole Kepic
It was about a year and a half ago. So it was December 22 What year was that? 2020. Yeah, yeah. So last year 2021 was my first year full time in my business where I didn’t have any other income sources. I was It’s all in in my business. So, yeah, I felt like a newbie all of a sudden, like I was starting from scratch. But meanwhile, I had been copywriting for 20 years. But everything about it was so different than, you know, the nine to five and even the freelancing on the side, because like I said, this was all in so yeah, totally different.

Laura Kåmark
How did you find those first clients? Like when you first were went out on your own? Obviously, I’m going to say you had previous clients you were still working with. But what how did you you know, you’re on your own, it’s January 1, and you’re like, Okay, let’s

Nicole Kepic
have those first clients. I thought you meant back when I started freelancing. Back when I started freelancing, I had worked in the fitness industry for seven and a half years writing for the fitness industry. So then my first freelance clients were people at other fitness companies, so they knew that I had that experience working for this big mega fitness company. And they were like, Yeah, we want her on our on our team to to do some writing for us. So that was back in the day. But then in terms of the clients I had when I first started last year, um, honestly, some, like many of them came from that group that were in the de rea group, just the connections that were built there. And then I started advertising more on Instagram. And I remember at first thinking, like, this is not working for me, like I’m hearing crickets. But somewhere along the line, I started getting more clients from Instagram. And then of course, referrals are always good, too, like, many of my clients come from referrals. So yeah, I can’t remember where I got that first. I mean, I was still, in the beginning, I was still mostly serving, like freelance clients from my previous life. But then it kind of over time changed, where I did less for those clients, and then more for newer clients. So.

Laura Kåmark
And can we talk a little bit about the day rate model? Because that’s you exclusively work on day rates? Now? Is that correct? Can you explain to our audience a little about how that works?

Nicole Kepic
Yeah. So before, I mean, my services are essentially the same. I’m still writing website, copy, sales page, copy, email copy, like what I’m writing hasn’t changed, it’s just more of the format. So before, I wasn’t doing day rate, so I was taking on multiple clients at a time and sometimes the projects would overlap or take a few weeks, or, or I’d get all the changes at once from multiple clients, like it was just harder to manage my schedule. And I think, not that I say this, too, I think I probably was advertising a lot more services than I do now. Because back in the marketing world, I was also reading like video scripts, and campaigns and brochures, like print posters and brochures, like I was writing all the things. So I think when I started with my own business, I advertised all the things on my website. And so if you went there, it would have been like, oh, wow, she can do like 100 different services, I’m confused. I’m just gonna, like leave this site. So around that time, when I went full time, I streamlined the services that I was offering, and also the way I was offering them, so I transitioned to day rates. And so now basically, people will hire me for a day or two, whatever it is, and I just like dive right into their project, write it in one dedicated chunk. And then that way, it’s not dragging on for weeks and weeks, like we just do it in that dedicated time period. And I’m able to plan my schedule a lot better.

Laura Kåmark
I love that so much. I love day rates. They’re my favorite way to work. They’re my favorite way to hire people to work for me because it gets done so fast. I mean, you’ve written copy for my website, you’ve written sales pages for me, I’ve referred you out to anyone ever. Like go talk to Nicole. I just I’ve been so impressed with your skills for how you have a way to make it sound like me. And I didn’t write that. And it sounds like me. And it’s because she knows me. Is it because we’re in this group together. But then I’ve heard you are I’ve read the copy written for other people that I know. And I’m like, it sounds just like them. And that’s just it’s really impressive. I’m just blown away by your skill.

Nicole Kepic
It also helps to if I know like if I know the industry so well or I know the profession so well. So I love reading for web designers. I love writing for coaches, because I’ve worked with coaches, I’ve worked with web designers so I can understand kind of the the arena that they’re working in. So it’s easier for me to write to.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, I know when you’ve written some stuff for me, you’re like I can relate to those because I am your ideal client so I can put myself in those shoes and really feel right from a place of knowing something else I’ve always really enjoyed about your, the way you write is it’s very, it’s conversational, and it’s it’s funny. I find that it’s sort of a different type of copy than I’ve seen a lot of, I find it a lot more enjoyable and more personable Well, can you speak to that at all? Kind of your style of writing?

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of my go to style is really conversational. But that has gotten me in trouble one or two times where I’ve written for an audience, or somebody that’s wanted more formal copy. And they’ve had to say, you know, I said I wanted warm and friendly, but maybe not so friendly. But yeah, generally my go to style is like warm, friendly, approachable, just the way you would speak to somebody over a coffee chat or something. So and that’s usually what people want. That’s what most business owners want, especially when it’s just like a solopreneur, or somebody as the face of the brand. They want it to feel really human. But like I said, sometimes there is the need to make it a bit more formal. And I can do that too. But I will always lean more conversational. That’s my preference.

Laura Kåmark
It’s hilarious. I know there’s, I’ve reread things on my website. I’m just like, this is really funny. Can you talk a little bit about Okay, so you do the one on one services? And then last year, you also created some products? Can we talk about that a little bit? In that journey?

Nicole Kepic
Yes, I feel like you’re giving me a gentle nudge to talk about them, because I always forget to promote them. Yeah, so I created a couple of digital products elevate your email copy, which is, it’s a whole kit, really. So it includes a welcome sequence and includes 52 weeks of email topics. What else storytelling guide, like using stories in your marketing, a few other things. But it’s really for people who already have an email list, whether it’s big or small, but then they’re ghosting their audience because they don’t know what to write them. So this kind of gives them from the welcome sequence to the nurture emails, something to say to their audience. So there’s that one. i That was the first one that one took a long time to create. And I realized, wow, a lot of work goes into like a low ticket product.

Laura Kåmark
I mean, 52 weeks of emails, like, that’s a lot of topics to cover. I know for me, I’ve been growing my email list. And I’m one of those people that’s like, I have a list. I don’t know what to say to them now. And I don’t know what topics to talk about. I want it to be funny. I want to be engaging, I want to be valuable, because I don’t want to be sending people things that people on my list anything that they’re like, why are you sending me this? Like, I want them to find value in it. And so then I get hung up in this, you know, perfectionism, overcomplicating overthinking. And I know I’m not the only one with that struggle. So I love that you created that that was definitely something that I needed and immediately purchase. And I use, I just sent an email last week, and you even replied to it. And I remember I was just like, it was so easy to write because I had your template to kind of give me some thought joggers on how to just write something in a nice conversational way. And a great topic. So

Nicole Kepic
Oh, I’m so glad. Yeah. And honestly, like you said, Everybody struggles with it. Like, even myself, normally, you know, I try to batch I mean, I tried to follow my advice in batch, write a few at a time. But say, for this week, I just realized, you know, life has been crazy lately. And I don’t have an email and I was thinking, what am I going to write tomorrow? And then like, it didn’t even dawn on me. Oh, I should use my own kit that I created. But yeah, everybody feels that way sometimes are you think, Oh, is this interesting? Is this relevant, but I think your subscribers are a lot more forgiving than anything. Like, especially if they’ve signed up to hear from you. They know you, they like you. They’re not as judgy as you might think.

Laura Kåmark
They’re not as judgey as we are on ourselves.

Nicole Kepic
Yes, we’re the worst to ourselves.

Laura Kåmark
For sure. Okay, so you have the 52 weeks email sequence. And then you have, I think, two other products

Nicole Kepic
I had. So I have the email kit. And then I have a launch like a pro sales copy kit. So it’s got a template for your sales page, and then launch emails to go with it. So I’ve basically the sales page, I haven’t written the sales pitch for you, obviously. But I’ve kind of guided you section by section on what to write. You know what to say how to say it. And then the launch emails those ones I’ve pretty much written for people where I’ve got most of the content there and they just have to fill in their brand details and obviously tweak it to their offer details as well. But yeah, so that one, that one, I do need to start promoting more because I know sales copy is like is a big pain point for some people.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, absolutely. It’s hard because you’re like you don’t what do I write? Yeah, right. How do I talk about this thing that I’m so close to?

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And do it in a way to that still feels like we were talking about really friendly and conversational and not like by this by this by this like exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Laura Kåmark
So what what would you say was something that was kind of surprising when you were creating like in your journey for going from doing solely one on one to Are you eating a digital product? Something that you found surprising in that sort of journey? Well, definitely,

Nicole Kepic
like I said, more work than I thought it should create those things. Yeah, I mean, and then mindset issues always pop up. I mean that they pop up all the time for everything. Because then you think, oh, but there are similar products out there. Other people have created similar products. But then you have to remember nobody, nobody is you and you will always have a different spin or take on it, whether it’s a digital product or service, whatever it might be. So you know, just have to remember that. Yeah, and then, yeah, I would say, especially when I was creating those products, also, keeping up with client work, too. I mean, in an ideal world, you would clear your calendar and just have all this white space to create those things. But that’s not always the case.

Laura Kåmark
I I find I, I can relate to that so much, because I have a digital product I’ve been working on for a while now. And it always seems to get put on the backburner because the client work comes first. And so it’s it’s hard to make that space for working on your own business or even creating something for your business. There’s two different pieces of that, because there’s also the CEO piece that has to be done.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s so many things in your business. Like that’s what I learned when I went full time in it. That yeah, you’re doing everything, the marketing, the sales, like the social media, everything, you’re doing it all. So it’s a lot.

Laura Kåmark
Is there anything that you outsource your business?

Nicole Kepic
Um, let’s see, I have I, I, oh, no, this is gonna get me in trouble. I have somebody who have hired as she’s a designer, and I’ve hired her to help me with VA type work, you know, design work and VA stuff. But I have just been really bad lately at setting aside time to delegate versus like, Oh, I’m just gonna do this myself. So yeah, that’s yeah, I don’t have any staff. It’s just right now it’s just me. But I am a big, like a big fan of hiring out like for one off things like I’ve hired you for tech integration and design. Coaches, obviously, I’ve hired many, many coaches. I’m addicted. What else? Yeah, tech integration, design coaching. I think when I got honey book setup, I hired up for that, too. Like anything that I’m like, Oh, this is going to take me a long time to learn how to do or I do not want to do this. I’m just gonna hire out.

Laura Kåmark
I think that’s so smart. Because we can spend so much time and if we’re not working in our zone and doing things that really bring us joy, it we put it off.

Nicole Kepic
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we spend way too much time on it. And then it just turns out like subpar. Like it’s not good. Yeah. As I’m having flashbacks of my first website that I DIY. It’s so ugly. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
But I also think it’s good to when you’re first starting out to like, when you are bootstrapping, and you’re just trying to figure out because also even like with a website, and ad copy, I don’t I don’t believe that people should hire copywriters when they’re first starting out, because their business is going to evolve and change. And their offers are going to evolve and change. And so I, I believe that they need to just make it simple, get something simple up. And then as I focus more on getting more clients, and getting those making those sales and building their audience, and really just getting their clients results, and then from there as they figure out what the business is going to look like, like even when you said that you first started and you had all these different products you were offering. And now you’re to the point where you’ve really narrowed it down and gotten a lot clearer.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, absolutely. I would 100% say that, because if somebody hires me, and they don’t even know who their target audience is, or what they’re really offering, yeah, I would feel really bad taking their money, because then they’re just gonna have to rewrite it a few months down the road when they changed their minds. So yeah,

Laura Kåmark
so who are the perfect people that you love to work with?

Nicole Kepic
Oh, my gosh, I have had such a struggle with niching. To be honest with you, like I, I’m going to be doing some more thinking about that in the near future. So stay tuned. But I feel like because I like I am one of those people like I like writing for all female entrepreneurs. But that is such a why that’s such a wide group of people. But in general, I really like writing for people who are a bit more established in their business. Not to say I won’t write for people who are brand new, but like I said, it just really helps if they are clear on who they’re serving. And you know, what their values are, and you know, their main message and it’s just so much easier for me to write for them. So typically, it’s people who have been in business for a few years. And they kind of they feel like their copy was dry before or it’s you know, the business has changed so much that the copy is no longer matching where they are in their business. Like it needs an uplevel I use I mean, that word gets used all the time, but it’s it’s True, like the copy needs to catch up to where they are in their business. Or they feel like it doesn’t sound like them or it’s not converting, it’s not selling. So that’s typically who I serve people who are a few years into business and they just need like a revamp, basically.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, I mean, that’s where I was, I struggled with the copy on my website for years. And I never felt it was just right on point. And so that was when it got, I was ready to, I knew who I was talking to. I knew what services as providing. And it was time for me to hire someone who could really just like, get my messaging, right. And I’ve gotten so many compliments on my copy.

Nicole Kepic
Oh, I’m so glad to hear that.

Laura Kåmark
I was just on it the other day, and she was like, I just really resonated with like your tone. And it was funny, and there’s so much personality, and it was like, Yes, that’s what I was going for. Because I wasn’t able to put that on paper. I do much better on video, talking to people.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, well, and the other thing too, I would say if you’re asking like my ideal clients, it’s also the mentality of somebody who, somebody who’s ready to invest and somebody who understands the value in it too. Like, I don’t want to get an I shouldn’t say this, I don’t want to get on a call with somebody and have to convince them of the value of copywriting. Like, I mean, I’m happy to do that. And maybe some people are totally new to copywriting. But I mean, it’s just makes it so much easier for me if people already understand the value of it. And, you know, they’re not going to say, hey, can we do it cheaper, like, I mean, my ideal client knows the value of it, and is willing to invest the same way I invest in other things, too. Like, I really do believe that you can’t expect people to invest in you if you’re not investing in other things, too. So

Laura Kåmark
100%, I saw so much change in my business, when I got to the point where I was ready to start investing more in my business, my growth and all those things. That’s when I saw my business start to take off.

Nicole Kepic
Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, it’s really cyclical. I mean, you have to be smart about it, too. You can’t be like investing way more than you’re making. But yeah, I absolutely. That’s, that’s how your business grows.

Laura Kåmark
How did you, I know for me, like when I first went out on my own, kind of unexpectedly, because I was laid off unexpectedly from my corporate job. But I found it really, really lonely. And that was one of the reasons when I finally did start. It was I feel like in 2021, kind of, you know, the world changed, and everything changed. And I lost a bunch of clients just because of what was happening to my retainer clients. And I really took some time to figure out what I wanted to do and what services I was going to be offering. And it was really lonely for a long time. And there I had a number of years where I didn’t have kind of like I hadn’t found my people, my tribe, who my biz besties, who I could connect with. And that to me was something else that really I felt like changed my business is when I started building those networks and having those connections. And can you speak on that at all, where you’ve kind of found your people to connect with and network with and like really form those bonds with and how that’s affected your business?

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, I mean, it’s been so helpful, because if I think back to when I was just freelancing, you’re right. It’s just very solitary. It was just kind of me working on my laptop. But yeah, I feel really lucky that basically, as soon as I jumped in full time, that was right around the time when I joined that direct group and met you and the others. And it’s kind of like I had that community right from the beginning. So I didn’t go through that really lonely stage, because right away, I was like, Oh, wow, this comes with having your own business, you get a bunch of new friends. So yeah, I really like it’s just amazing. I like how we will even send each other messages back and forth and voice messages and stuff and your driving Chronicles, you’ll send me random messages as you’re driving. And it is really nice to just have people who understand, like fully understand what you’re going through as a business owner and how you’re trying to balance all the things and the mindset, like the mindset stuff, for sure. That’s usually what we are, when we’re on our small group calls, we’re usually boosting each other up saying no, you can absolutely do this and get out of your own head. Like we’re, we’re helping each other with more of that stuff versus the actual strategies. I find like the tactical stuff.

Laura Kåmark
I agree. 100% Because yeah, that’s it is it is all mindset, and we all get so caught up in our own little, you know, downward spiral of questioning ourselves and our skills and we have skills and we bring value to our clients. And sometimes we need someone else to remind us of. Yeah, no, I do.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah. And you are such a good cheerleader for people. You’re like, I don’t know what’s the name for for people that connect other people. You are that person who connects people and then is like their cheerleader with the pom poms and everything.

Laura Kåmark
I would love to know what would you say is kind of one of the biggest mine said hurdles that you feel like you’ve had to overcome in your journey.

Nicole Kepic
Oh my gosh, I’ve had a few. The one that’s popping in my head right now is like, I’ve thought to myself, well, what makes me different, even though I just gave the advice, you know, 20 minutes ago about how you have your own spin on things, but it’s easy to go on Instagram or anywhere else and see, oh, wow, there are 5 billion other copywriters like what makes me different? Why somebody can choose me over somebody else. So I’ve definitely had those thoughts before. I remember when I started writing for coaches, another weird mindset thing I had was, I put coaches on this like super high pedestal I think because again, on Instagram, I saw all these coaches talking about like, making $50,000 in one day, and like I was like, Oh, wow, these people are fancy. Like, I don’t know if I can write for them. And But meanwhile, I had all the like, I had 20 years copywriting experience. But this was a new audience to me. So I kind of felt like I was like, like I said, a newbie, and who I’m not worthy to write for them, like they are on this high pedestal. And then of course, then I met a few coaches, and they’re the most lovely people and you know, great to work with Rachael Ray for at least the ones that I have. So I don’t know, the mind plays weird tricks on you sometimes? Absolutely.

Laura Kåmark
It’s exactly what it does. I yeah, I can relate to all of that, as well. I’ve had some web design clients that I’m like, Oh, they’ve been in business for so long. They they’re so successful. And I mean, we’re all people like, me, you know, that’s it. But it is a mind does definitely play tricks, for sure.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah. And I think you also have to realize, too, that like somebody was saying before, people, your clients don’t have the skill that you have. So I remember back in the day reading for a doctor and a lawyer, I’m thinking Ooh, again, these people are fancy. These are like doctors and lawyers. But they don’t have copywriting skills. So you know, there’s no need to think that, you know, oh, my gosh, who am I to work for them, when they don’t have the skills I have same with you, they wouldn’t have web design skills. So

Laura Kåmark
on also like, like we touched on earlier, owning our own business, we wear so many different hats, and it’s exhausting. And when we’re trying to do it all, it gets really exhausting. And so I know again, like going back to when I was trying to write my own copy, it was so exhausting. And I could have sat there, I would probably still be trying to figure it out. Or I could outsource it to someone who loves to write copy, and is going to do probably a better job than I not probably did a much better job than I would ever be able to do. And that’s I mean, so it’s it’s the given the tape, you know, you can either spend the time. And it depends like what do you have? Do you have more time? Or do you have what’s more important having the time or having the money? I right now don’t have a lot of time I have young kids. I never know when they’re going to be home. And to me if something’s going to take too much time, and it’s going to slow down the growth of my business. I want to outsource it.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that takes practice to so you might be really scared to do it the first time because you’re not sure if you’re gonna get that return on investment. But then I think once you’ve outsourced a couple times, and you’re like, oh, wow, not only did this save me time, but it just Alexa going off in the background. Not only does it save you time, but it also propels your business forward in ways that you didn’t imagine. So yeah,

Laura Kåmark
exactly. Because it’s also looking at things as an investment and not as an expense.

Nicole Kepic
Yes, yeah, that’s a big one. That’s a big one. And it’s hard, especially when you first start your business, because of course, you’re super mindful of that. When you’re Yeah, when you’re just starting out. Because you want to be making sure that you’re making money too. So, exactly.

Laura Kåmark
I know it’s absolutely. So I would also love to talk a little bit about what do you find that you are, you’re doing different in the industry? How would you say you’re being bold in the industry?

Nicole Kepic
I would, I mean, it could go back to that conversational piece that we’re talking about. So just giving people the permission to write in a way that’s friendly and approachable and human, like giving them permission to be human to show up and write in a way that’s uniquely their own and just to embrace who they are and not feel like they have to write in a super formal, like marketing type way, just being who they are and human.

Laura Kåmark
So do you have any tips for our audience on how to bring more of that kind of personal touch to their emails or coffee or?

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, I mean, something super simple is you know, using fewer contractions. So when you’re writing instead of saying I do not you would say I don’t because when you’re talking with somebody usually use contractions you just say I don’t or Like I want to, or whatever it is. So you can be more casual as you’re writing to, because that’s how you would speak. So just thinking, how would I say this if I was talking to somebody one on one. And then if you have any favorite expressions or phrases, or if you have a unique sense of humor, you can inject those into your copy, too. See what else? Yeah, just just removing the jargon too. Sometimes, you know, people will add in a lot of jargon, or like big words and long sentences, because they think it makes them sound more professional or smarter. But, you know, just very casual everyday language works to

Laura Kåmark
I know, I am like Queen of the run on sentences and run on thoughts. Not in a jargony way, but in a, I just have long run ons. And I stopped worrying about it as much. Because I know I had someone who recently unsubscribed from my email list and they’re like, you have typos on your website? I’m like, That’s okay. It’s okay.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, we’ve had that conversation to about perfection. And yeah, I think we were talking to before about when I went to journalism school, university, if we had a typo in our assignments, that was an automatic zero, like, if you made one spelling mistake, no matter how much research you had done on that article, and you know, if the article was 1000 World words, if you had one mistake, you got an automatic zero. So I remember in the corporate world, and then even in my own business, thinking, Oh, my gosh, I cannot have a typo. And then I remember you saying, No, who cares if you’ve got a tape? Oh, it’s just human, like, obviously don’t want tape. It was like literally in your work. But yeah, especially for entrepreneurs. solopreneurs, like, just human. So it’s gonna happen. It’s not the end of the world. Absolutely.

Laura Kåmark
I know, in terms of like storytelling, and trying to like, that’s something I find that I struggle a little bit with, is, I have a lot of stories, and trying to find the bridge that pulls that into a business lesson, that I read so many emails, I’m like, wow, that was so well done. Do you have any tips on how to kind of find ways to take the personal story and massage it into a business? Yeah,

Nicole Kepic
I mean, usually, I’ll have an intro with a story. And then you’re right, it needs kind of like a segue something like why do I share this with you, or it’s kind of like in business, and then you go into the business lesson. But usually, it only works if the story and the business lesson have the same theme. So they the theme is like overwhelmed. So you’re talking your real life story, your day to day story is like a such a funny situation where you’re overwhelmed. And then you say going into it. Like, it’s kind of like in business when you’re overwhelmed with this, or whatever. Or maybe it’s like, pick a theme, anything, whatever it might be, just both things should have the same theme. So you can kind of tie them together, if that makes sense. Oh, I

Laura Kåmark
love that. That’s, I love how you just broke that down too. Because I don’t know that I’ve thought of it that way. I have a lot of thoughts when I’m out walking the dog. Oh, that would be really great story that I like, but how do I connect that back to? So trying to find the common theme? I love that.

Nicole Kepic
Or you can pick your theme first and then find a story that matches it. But I mean, yeah, whatever. Sometimes it’s just like, yeah, thinking or remembering those loose, funny, quirky little stories. Most of those things can be turned into, well, they can be used in email, and they can be turned into a business lesson. So yeah, you just need that smooth segue followed by the smooth segue.

Laura Kåmark
I’ve always found your email. So to all the listeners out there, if you are not on Nicole’s email address, or on her email list, I highly recommend getting on there. I look forward to your emails every week when they come out. Because I you do such a good job of the storytelling and I find them so personable and they make me smile, they make me laugh, they make me want to reply, which is really what you’re going what we’re all shooting for in when we’re writing our email sequences. So I love how you’re able to do that.

Nicole Kepic
Thank you. Um, yeah, I mean, Stories help, obviously, with building connection. And not every email has to be a story. You could do tips you can do like, here’s what’s happening in my business. Like, it doesn’t have to be a story every time. But it definitely helps with building connection. And then even if you just get people to, like ask them a trivial question or a little question, they reply that’s building connection to and getting people used to replying to you so that it can also start a new conversation as well too. So it might seem like a little insignificant action that somebody’s replying, but it’s, it’s a big deal.

Laura Kåmark
Do you find that you ever have stories that you’re writing out and it’s just it’s really really long and you’re like, Okay, I got to pair this thing down and she was way too long of a story. I know I struggle with that. Again, a very wordy long winded person. Do you have any tips for how to kind of pare down those long run on stories?

Nicole Kepic
Oh my gosh, yes, I’m definitely have that. And then especially as a copywriter I get I feel so married to each word and each sentence like, Oh, I gotta keep this in like, I like every word. And then I’m like, no whatever, like, you just have to remember whatever. So long as the structure and overall message is still intact. Whatever you take out, your reader is not even going to know they’re not going to miss it, because they didn’t see it in the first place. So yeah, I just tell you like, and then read it out loud, too. Because if you find some places are repetitive, you can take stuff out of that way as well. But yeah, just remember that your reader won’t miss it, because they didn’t see it. They didn’t see what you took out. On that note, I’m sorry. I just wanted something else to on that note, there’s nothing wrong. I mean, of course, people have short attention span. So you know, short emails are good. But if you have a really long email, but it’s super interesting and engaging, then go for it too. Like there’s no rule that says your email has to be like 75 words or less.

Laura Kåmark
I love that. I find that one of the things that has helped me with writing, like how I talk is to actually loom record myself because loom does transcripts. And so Allume record, I don’t really necessarily watch it, I just loom record it as I’m talking and telling the story or writing out the email. I tried. Google Docs has talked to text. But sometimes they don’t get the words right. And then I look back at I’m like, What was I saying there? And so that’s why I do like to use loom where it’s recorded. So I can go back and see what I actually said and correct the transcript as needed. But I found that really helpful for me for kind of pulling the words out and putting them on paper when I’m sitting there staring at a blank. Google Doc.

Nicole Kepic
That’s such a good idea. Yeah. And then you you can, in theory record at any time and then come back to it later, right? You don’t have to do like record, right, and you can record and then come back to it a week later if you wanted to.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, just if you do it on your phone, make sure it doesn’t cut you off. Because one time my phone, I was like getting going it was getting really good. And then I looked down. I’m like, oh, no, it stopped. What did I say? Oh, that’s too bad. Oh, I love all these tips. Because yeah, again, as someone who has struggled with copy pretty much since I started my business. And I’ve also been trying to implement the nurture sequence where I have an ongoing evergreen sequence, which is something I’ve been implementing for clients as well. And a lot of them I send them to get your 52 weeks to get inspiration on because you also have four different pillars that you talk about in there. Can you talk about the pillars a little bit?

Nicole Kepic
Is yes, if I can remember what they are because I wrote it someone I know one is handy tips. So you’re you’re providing an educational or handy tip to your readers. There is there’s a sell with confidence one that’s where you’re just like unapologetically selling your offers. There is a just for fun one, this is me trying to remember what they are this is there’s a just for fun one where it’s just like, hey, this is what’s happening in my life. That’s not related to business, because sometimes people do want to get to know you better on that level to not just like business all the time. What

Laura Kåmark
is the other one? Not? Is it behind the scenes

Nicole Kepic
behind the scenes? Yes. That’s it. So that’s more like, behind the scenes of your business. Talking about your process, maybe client stories just so that people can get a sense of what it’s like to work with you. So yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Do you repurpose a lot of your content? Like in your emails? Do you then repurpose any of that on social media or

Nicole Kepic
talk? Yeah, I typically start with email, because that will typically be longer. And then I’ll shorten it, condense it for Instagram. So yeah, typically, I will use it in both places.

Laura Kåmark
Yeah, I love that. Because then you’re just reading the, the email and then you can slice and dice from there and probably get a couple of posts if needed. Yeah, I’ve only

Nicole Kepic
gotten one. But I mean, I could probably do a better job of repurposing, like there are still so many things in my business that I think I’m doing way too manually that I need to automate a bit more. That’s probably one of them. Yeah.

Laura Kåmark
I am an annual you know this about me. I’m a big fan of celebrating our wins and celebrating the little things and the actions we take and just celebrating the accomplishments that we’ve all had in our business. I would love to know that when it comes to your business. What’s something you are most proud of yourself for?

Nicole Kepic
Oh my gosh, I did not see this. What am I most proud of? I mean, honestly, I was really proud of last year so like I said last year was my first full year full time in business. And you know, when I first started I had those thoughts of Oh, geez, what if i What if the clients don’t come like that? Of course, there was that thought even though I had prepped and not, you know, done all the things, it was still a scary leap into full time entrepreneurship. And then I ended up being like, pretty busy all year. So at the end of it, I remember you again being like, you need to celebrate this. You’ve had such a great year like, This is crazy. This is your first year and so. So yeah, that I mean. Now I will say to though, I’ve learned something since that last year, because I feel like last year, even though it was successful, I met so many great people I wrote for so many great clients, I definitely see how it was like, there was a lot of hustle happening when there shouldn’t have been like, some nights and weekends. Because, again, it was probably scarcity mindset of like, okay, this is my first year in business. This is the first time I haven’t had a steady paycheck, I better say yes to this project. Because what if, what if next month, there’s no clients? So I know, there’s some scarcity mindset happening, which led to some overworking and you know, not the best boundaries. So now this year, I’m just trying to work smarter with that stuff.

Laura Kåmark
Have more whitespace?

Nicole Kepic
Yes, that is my word of the year. So which I have to remind myself of, and yes, because I remember working with, starting with a one to one coach back in January, we did four months together. And she she looked at my current calendar, and she said, Where’s your whitespace? Like, where are you doing big picture thinking for your business? Where are you? Like, what, like thinking of new digital products? Or where are you? Like, where are you resting, basically? And I was like, um, yeah, there wasn’t really any whitespace. And so yeah, if I, if I didn’t want to repeat last year, I had to, to intentionally think about that. And I still have to remind myself of that.

Laura Kåmark
How are you finding that you’re kind of juggling that balance of finding the white space and not pushing yourself to hustle too hard? Are you? What are you doing? What are you telling yourself?

Nicole Kepic
Well, there’s one thing I’m actually doing most times I was doing it. So when I was working with this one to one coach, she said, why don’t you do three weeks, three weeks on VIP days, one week off. So you’re one week off. It’s not like you’re just sitting on the couch watching soap operas, you’re like you’re doing behind the scenes stuff in your business, or you’re doing your marketing or whatever you’re doing, you’re still working, but you’re not doing client work. So I’d say about half the time, I was good at sticking to that. But then other times I would get a client come like instant message me or something and say, Hey, like, I need a sales page written but I needed in three weeks, can you squeeze me in or something? And I’d look on my calendar, and I would see that empty week. And instead of saying, Sorry, I don’t have a space, I’d say, oh, yeah, that a space. So then I would take them, which I mean, it’s not horrible that I would do that. But my coach basically said, If you keep doing that, hello, you don’t have any white space again. So

Laura Kåmark
which goes back to our earlier conversation about where we put our clients stuff before we put our business stuff. Yeah, business stuff gets put on the backburner.

Nicole Kepic
Exactly, exactly. 100%, I always put our I did, I’m gonna say did always put client work for us. I mean, it’s only natural, because, you know, we’re service providers, but you really have to do, like, put the effort in to set aside that time. So I’m trying to do that. And even this summer, I’m not sure when this is coming up. But this summer, my sister the other day said, you know, why don’t you go a lot later this summer on your VIP days. And at first, I was like, no, no, no, I can’t do that. And now I’m like, You know what, there’s a lot that’s been happening in life. And I think I need to do this. And it’s gonna give me time to like, again, think about my niche that I keep changing. And, you know, get caught up with marketing and all those things. So yeah.

Laura Kåmark
Mentioned mentioning your sister just made me think of a story that you have told that has always stuck in my head. And I would love for you to share it with our audience. You have a very interesting story of when you were first born.

Nicole Kepic
Oh, okay. I’m live. I have a twin sister and we were born on Well, I guess there’s two interesting parts. So this is a while ago. My so my mom had us twins. But she didn’t know until my sister was born. afterwards. The doctor said, there’s another baby. There’s another heartbeat. So my poor mother, who was a single mother at the time, she wasn’t with my dad anymore. She thought she was just having one baby and then all of a sudden I was a single mother, single mother she’s having to two instead of one. And then the other interesting thing is that we even though we’re twins, we have separate birthdays because my sister was born 17 minutes before midnight, and I was born exactly 17 minutes after midnight.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah, I didn’t know about Oh, wow. But but can

Nicole Kepic
you imagine I mean, just being a single mother with one child is probably hard enough, but two at the same time.

Laura Kåmark
Well, and not even just two at the same time too and not knowing there’s going to be two.

Nicole Kepic
Yes, like no prep, there’s no power. There was one crib there were not two cribs. Only one of everything. So yeah,

Laura Kåmark
it’s like, yeah, at least it was two girls. Yes, that’s true. But man. Oh, and I did not know that piece about the separate birthdays. That’s hilarious.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah, it’s funny because now on Well, depends, you know how you have like really close friends and you have friends that are kind of like on the peripheral. So those peripheral friends on Facebook will always wish my sister happy birthday, happy birthday. And then they’ll assume that my birthday is same day. So then, five minutes later, I’ll get a message. They haven’t birthday. And I’m like, It’s not my birthday yet. But that’s okay. I get the mistake.

Laura Kåmark
Oh, I love it. I’m gonna remember that one too, because that’s yeah, I was just always as a mother of small children. I just could not imagine the surprise in the delivery room of like, oh, by the way, there’s to

Nicole Kepic
know. And I was like, okay, it wasn’t that long ago. I’m not that old. How come there weren’t any ultrasounds or what? And she, I guess my mom didn’t have one, or I think she said something about like, our heartbeats were like, in sync or something. So they thought there was just one child? Like, I don’t know what the story is.

Laura Kåmark
Someone wasn’t paying very close attention.

Nicole Kepic
Yeah. That’s probably more like,

Laura Kåmark
it’s yeah. Um, we are getting close to our time, I do have a couple more questions. I do want to ask you, I would love to know if there is one piece of advice that you would give someone when they’re first starting out their business that would help them just be bolder, make waves be more than just get over some of that mindset stuff. What’s one piece of advice? And maybe it’s advice you would give yourself if you could go back? Yeah,

Nicole Kepic
I would probably say be willing to try something once. Something new. And the example I think of is a couple years ago. Yeah, I think it was a couple of years ago, somebody had asked me to be on a podcast. And at the time, my first like alarm bells were going off in my head thinking like no answer, no, you do not want to do this. You do not like the sound of your voice. You are not interesting enough, like say no. And then I thought, Well, like I had I had this other coach of the time say, like, always, are trying to make decisions from the future. You so would, if future you would be more confident and boldly go on podcast and say yes. Now even if you don’t want, if you if right now you’re thinking, Oh, this is the last thing I want to do. So I remember at that time saying, Okay, I don’t really want to do this, but I’m going to try it. And then I loved it. And it was so much easier than I thought. So I would like if you ever have that feeling of like, should I or shouldn’t I like just try it, you might really like it. And if you hate it, then don’t do it again. Or I mean, obviously if something is like screaming at you that it’s like, wildly not for you or your gut is telling you not to do something, of course don’t do it then but if you feel like you could do it, but it just feels a bit uncomfortable. Like at least try it and then and then go from there.

Laura Kåmark
I love that. I think that’s fabulous advice. Thank you. Well, Nicole, thank you so much for being here today. This was such a fun conversation. Can you let our listeners know where they can find you online and come hang out

Nicole Kepic
with you? Oh, thank you. I love being here too. Yeah, they can find me on my website, Nicolekepic.com. So it’s my first name and my last name. Or on Instagram. That’s usually the place I’m hanging out @NKcopywriting.

Laura Kåmark
Wonderful. And I will link all that up in the show notes. Thank you again. This was so much fun. Thanks, Laura. Thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode. Be sure to check out the show notes at LauraKåmark.com/podcast. And if you’re ready to grow and scale your business, and your current website is outdated and doesn’t reflect the magic you bring and the results you get for your clients. Go to Laurakamark.com to find out how I can help bring your vision to life. Thanks so much for listening. I’ll see you next week. Bye now.

 

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